SHEILA CHANDRA's INTERVIEW
with JOHN SCHAEFER at WNYC 1996

 

John:

I'm John Schaefer.Tonight, programme number 131. It's our monthly programme of new releases and we'll be focusing for the first portion of tonight's programme on a single recording - the latest from Sheila Chandra. It's called "ABoneCroneDrone".What's it all about?

Well fortunately, Sheila Chandra is here with me in the Studio to tell us. Sheila, first of all it's always a delight to have you here.

Sheila:

It's lovely to be here.

John:

"ABoneCroneDrone" is the third in a trio, really of a trilogy of albums that you've done -

Sheila:

Yeah

John:

- for the Real World label. Of course there are many CDs and records before that but, these three seem to be of a piece and you know there is, I don't know what it is - I can't put my finger on it but, there seems to be something connecting them, other than the obvious fact that they all centre around your voice.

Sheila:

Well, there are the three that stick to voice and drone and don't use anything else. The thing that I think links the three is, the sense of trying to get to the essence of something. With "ABoneCroneDrone", I'm trying to do that in a very impressionistic way. I think sometimes you can get, you can point better to the truth with peripheral vision, you know, with a kind of impressionism rather than if you point directly to something too delicate it'll just fly away.

So, "ABoneCroneDrone" is trying to give listeners a sense of what goes on in my head, as a creator. "The Zen Kiss" tried to give a sense of what I felt, as a performer and, "Weaving" something of the vulnerability of being a voice and what the power of the voice means, so that those insights into the way that I create are the things that bind them philosophically into a trilogy.

John:

Well, in the latest CD, the new one, you're really dealing with a microcosm. You've gone from the almost universal aspect of "Weaving My Ancestors Voices" which did just that, trying to weave together the British Isles, the Indian sub-continent. Now you've gone into what's inside a drone. Which is a fascinating concept. One that, you know, certain avant garde composers in the West have taken up over the years but, you've really done something a little bit different here right? You've sort of ....

Sheila:

Well, it's lovely, in reviews in England at the moment, people are quoting all these sources at me. "Have you heard this, have you heard that?" or you know "She must have heard this". And I haven't, I haven't heard any of them. It's just my response to drones really and my response to the question which I found a lot of journalists asking me about where the inspiration for "Weaving" "The Zen Kiss" came from. And I would say they came from the drones and, they would say "Oh no! Surely you know that the gypsies came from North India and moved into Ireland and that's the reason why "Dhyana and Donalogue" works". And I hadn't worked any of that out. It happened, the connections between those vocal cultures happened purely in my voice and really without any intellectual analysis or input from me. So I wanted to prove it in a way, to give people some sense - non-musical people who are not used to listening for the harmonics in things - some sense of what I feel, just before a melody whispers itself into my ear. And in order for that to happen, I have to really feel the potential of things like drones. One has to get into that microcosm world as you say, of the rich tapestry of harmonics. Drones are so deceptive. They appear to be this very flat, boring, monotone of homogenised sound but, if you have the ears to hear it, they are a wonderful rich, diverse tapestry of little vocal sparkles, little, sorry, harmonic sparkles and cyclic riffs, which are ever changing, even if you play the same drone on the same piece of tape ten times and, I really wanted to invoke this sense of being in a kind of cauldron of sound into a melting pot, where there is apparently nothing and yet there is everything.

John:

So what you're singing is sort of growing out of what you're picking out of the drone - is that ...

Sheila:

Yeah, we had a challenge really, because, Steve and I wanted to create an album that...

John:

Steve Coe?

Sheila:

Steve Coe, who co-writes with me and who produces for me. We wanted to create a living experience. Recording is, by its nature a static thing. One freezes a moment in time and, usually that's what one wants. You want to be manipulative, you want to say to the listener. "Well, someone broke my heart and this is how I felt on that particular day when I stuffed 20 chocolate cookies. This is exactly how I felt and now you can feel it too". And ... Gosh! That sounds indulgent, doesn't it, and not just with the cookies?! But this was more about helping the listeners to connect to the place that I do and, so it needed to be a living experience. Which means that it needs to be different every single time, and the way that we approached that technically, was to freeze a moment in time, as far as the writing was concerned. So we sat down, on a particular evening and listened, to say, the drone that makes up "ABoneCroneDrone" I and said, right this is what we can hear and we won't over arrange it or structure it. This is what we can hear as we hear it and then I sang that in the studio. But what Steve also did was, worked out lots and lots of ways of enhancing that in the studio, so that, we used filters, for instance, on "ABoneCroneDroneI", one which would bring out the harmonics. So what you have is, the harmonic pattern or signature of my voice, in the drone, because that drone is me singing over and over and over - it's not looped up, 'cos then you get marvellous imperfections and you get better harmonics, and then me mimicking the harmonic signature and that producing harmonic signatures, so there is this kind of double harmonic signature of my voice on that particular track.

Steve:

Everything reinforcing everything else.

Sheila:

Yeah, and so it builds up into a particular sort of pattern. But we used other things, I mean, Steve threw my voice through a loud speaker up into a grand piano, with the loud pedal down. Very, very loud so that the strings tuned to the pitches I was singing, vibrated like mad and gave us another harmonic signature which melted very well into my voice. And then on "ABoneCroneDrone III", he played a piano and recorded it without any attack and I've never heard a piano without any attack, but what you get is this lovely whoamm ... of the dying away of the resonating of the strings and of course you get all these little sparkles of sound from that.

 

 

And so the voice is not really important. My personality is not important, you know, on "Weaving" and "The Zen Kiss", the voice was right up there. There was nothing else to concentrate on. We spent 16 hours mixing the voice and the personality and the texture and these skills and, of course, the message from the heart, was the most important thing. But on this one the voice is just a signpost to what's going on in the drone and, the listener becomes part of the creative experience, because your own brain is going to take up those little patterns and create something entirely new every single time. And hopefully, we'll have buried things in various places so that you'll only hear something on the 20th listen or on your friend's stereo or on headphones, so that it will change every single time.

John:

So the place in which you are hearing the sound will alter the sound.

Sheila:

Oh yes! Because you know how difficult, in some ways, harmonics are to pin down, they bounce off the walls - you don't know where they're coming from at all and that's what makes them magical.

John:

Let's hear "ABoneCroneDrone I" from the new CD by my guest Sheila Chandra on tonight's edition of New Sounds

THE SONG IS PLAYED

"ABoneCroneDrone I" from the CD "ABoneCroneDrone", by my guest Sheila Chandra on tonight's edition of New Sounds. This is her latest CD, on the Real World record label and ... Sheila just the title is a very illusive one. It's full of, I mean it's full of hints at things and then there's the hint of getting to something old, you know ...

Sheila:

Yeah

Steve:

... the fossilised remains of something that we've forgotten a long time ago. There's also obviously, the reference to the drone, which is one of the fundaments of human music making and even the sense of some kind of magic, you know, the crone, the witch over her bubbling cauldron.

Sheila:

Yeah, you've got them all, I think. It's in the great tradition of nonsense album titles like, "UmmaGumma"!

John:

Right.

 

Or whatever the hell that Grateful Dead record is.

Sheila:

Oh really! I've never heard that one. I think it would have been easy to call the album "Drone" and, but it's nicer to get people thinking about it and so, with a nonsense word, they have to. And it also is easier for me to write down, just write down ABCD.

John:

Well, that's the other thing. The ABCD suggests something encyclopaedic in its coverage of the drone. You know, like, here is a catalogue of what you can hear in this ostensibly very simple monotonous piece of music.

Sheila:

Yeah, Yes, 'cos they are six, hopefully, accessible ways of getting you to tune into harmonics if you haven't been able to before. You know, it sounds obtuse as a concept, and yet I have tried to make it as accessible as possible without shouting the harmonics at you because in that you case, you know, you'd just have the subtlety of it drowned, but yes, the bones of the drones are the harmonics. I think, they're the things that are unseen and yet give them structure, in the way that bones give us structure in are unseen, and then the crone, yes, I think the crone is me, in a way. You know, this feisty crabby old woman, stirring this pot of uncompromising potential, that looks like gook and, yet manages to be something, you know, managing to come up with something. I think also this idea that the crone is a diabalised archetype for us. We have no positive, well certainly in England, we have very few positive archetypes for older women. The idea that women, once they lose their ability to have physical children have in some way outlived their purpose, is a very spurious one and, so the crone is a great representation of a woman who's having mental children and of that, you know, a wise seer, historian, singer of songs, 'layer out of the dead'. The person that presided over birth marriage and death and you know, the most important things of our life and probably dispensed a good bit of wisdom with it and, you know, and then the feisty nature of people like that who'd probably, you know, stand up and tell you what for, because they just had the experience, they weren't going to take any nonsense.

 

So we have the crone there as a symbol of the creator and, when you think about the divine and the connection to the divine, which I'm trying to invoke, you know, the feeling that, out of universal consciousness these melodies sing themselves into my ear and that I feel connected to some sort of higher intelligence - the very special feeling that that is. I know, many, many, people have the ability to, all of us have the ability to do it, if we try. So I am invoking the divine, the word crone because, she's obviously the creator. She's creating over this cauldron of bubbling things and, our definition for the divine is the creator - that's the only definition we have and it says something about the creative act that really there ought to be no barrier between artist and audience. To do that is to deny the audience its creative and divine potential and that's why I'm trying to let people in on exactly what I hear. I want to give away all these secrets. I mean, I find drones irresistible to sing over and, because I'm listening to what people think of this album because, they are 50% of the creative equation, I find that a lot of people are coming back to me and saying "Oh, I started singing over it immediately I heard it" because they are, whether consciously or unconsciously, hearing things that they want to emulate and that's great.

John:

Well, I mean, there are lots of people who will say, it's important for the listener to be a part of my music and stuff but, in the case of ...

Sheila:

It's the taking it to an extreme, isn't it?

John:

Yeah! In the case of this music where the listeners can actually ...

Sheila:

It's, 'you compose it as you go'.

John:

... they can alter the sound a bit, you know, because, I mean, obviously the standing waves of all these harmonics, will fill a room if you play it at a loud enough volume and, as you eluded to before, you know, you will, as listener, change what you're hearing, or at least, how you're hearing these pieces.

Sheila:

Yeah!, Normally when I go into the studio, because I own my own recordings and I pay for them, I'm very worked out about what I want to do. I hate wasting money in a studio and not knowing what I want to do. So "Weaving" and "Zen Kiss" were homed over two years each and I knew exactly what we were doing. With this one, that wasn't possible at all. Although, Steve had worked on a lot of techniques that he thought might work when we got to the mix stage, we were really biting our nails because, we didn't know if we could create this living experience that I've been talking about and, the proof of the pudding was when the cutting engineer got hold of it because, you know, he's probably the best cutting engineer in the country - he cuts for Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush and he's a very talented man.

 

And, if he hears something, it's there! And, if he doesn't, it isn't because - if his ears aren't true he can't tell whether he should get rid of that rustle or that rumble or whatever it is. And, he was playing it and standardising it and then in about the third time through as it was going down on to the DAT to go off to the factory, he walked over the room, to pick up his cup of tea and went "huh! that wasn't there before!" So we completely freaked him out. But we knew then that it worked. If we could fool his ears, we could fool most peoples.

John:

Mmm... So the CD is a collection of six of these pieces. That first one that we heard - "The Drone" is your voice.

Sheila:

Yes.

John:

A couple of tracks of you just singing the drone.

Sheila:

Many, Many tracks of me ...

John:

The whole point is not just a drone, nothing is just a drone.

Sheila:

No.

John:

With the exception of a sign wave, which doesn't have harmonics.

Sheila:

No.

John:

But what are some of the other drones that are used here?

Sheila:

We've used digeridoo drone over the very familiar - what I call the McCrimmon drone on "ABoneCroneDrone II". The first time I used it was for the "Lament of McCrimmon/Song of the Banshee"on "Roots and Wings" and, I've used it a lot since on "Weaving" and "The Zen Kiss", I used it for "Waiting" and for "Kafi Noir". So people are used to hearing that drone. I think of it almost as my signature drone and, it's nice to open up a new world into something that familiar. We deliberately used familiar drones, so that listeners who were perhaps familiar with those albums, that hear this and open up the worlds in them, in these drones, can go back and hear "Waiting" or something with maybe new ears. Umm... other things we've done are, the harmonium, we've used just plain harmonium drone on "ABoneCroneDrone IV".

 

The harmonic is so loud on that track it just screams out at you - I sing ahhh, ahhh, (and sings back the same). It follows me all the way through, so that if you can't, if you're not getting it, that's a good one to start with. But hopefully, if you start out with the album and you can't hear what I'm talking about, they are just flat notes, then if over successive listenings, you do work out where these harmonics are and you can hear these wonderful patterns and notes then, you know, presumably when you go off and hear a "Pearl Jam" record or you hear a bubbling stream or anything else, your ability to hear will have been enhanced.

John:

You know, it's funny you mention "Pearl Jam", because - have you heard their song, "Better Man"?

Sheila:

No.

John:

Eddie Veda hits a harmonic that is so loud, the first time, I heard it on car radio, I thought I was hearing things.

Sheila:

Really?

John:

Yeah! And it's, I mean, I don't know whether he intended it or not but he repeatedly, on the words "Better Man" on the A in Man, there's - I don't how many people are hearing it because - in that world?..

Sheila:

Well, I would bet money that he's doing it consciously because, the other part of the secret, if you like, that I'm trying to share, is that harmonics are a singer's secret. We call harmonically rich voices, good voices and singers either consciously or unconsciously deliberately manipulate those harmonics, so that if a song rings true emotionally, it's usually because the harmonics are placed well and a good lyricist knows how to place vowel sounds so that the harmonics will ring true. And that's been the reason why I've used lyricless vocals a lot on this trilogy, you know, with the other two because, when you are trying to invoke a certain tone or a certain texture, you don't necessarily want to be limited by the vowel sounds of the word that you're singing and sometimes it's necessary for it to just go into that realm of pure sound and - it's lovely actually, knowing that you're, it's almost like dabbing a little highlight on to some still life that you've painted. The harmonics are like the little highlights that bring the thing to life.

John:

With the voice of course, you know, you can sort of get to different emotional states and suggest different emotions even without resorting to obvious lyrics.

Sheila:

Umm, yeah, because it's connected to your blood supply.

John:

What's happening in "ABoneCroneDrone III"? What's the drone, and then what's the process.

Sheila:

"ABoneCroneDrone III" is a vocal drone that Steve and I sang together. So we sang over and over and over and made up that drone without any loops, and we've used these wonderful piano cords without attack and a chant in fifths because I noticed that when you invoke a fifth harmonic - you get this sort of sense of potential. If you invoke the harmonic, the immediate octave above the note you're singing, people seem to report back to me a sense of satisfaction and sweetness but, fifths are more sort of getting a sense of picance and a sense of potential of the melody. So we've used chants that go in fifths to see what would happen to the harmonics then, and, we've used a very quiet bagpipe which you'll have to listen hard to spot - bagpipe drones. And very cheeky little echoes of the melody in the harmonics that we've actually placed there. So there's a lot to listen to there.

John:

OK! "ABoneCroneDrone" is the name of the CD. Here's part III - once again, music from my guest, Sheila Chandra on tonight's edition of New Sounds.

THE SONG IS PLAYED

"ABoneCroneDroneIII", from Sheila Chandra, my guest on tonight's edition of New Sounds. Sheila, last time you were here in the studio, after "The Zen Kiss" CD, you did a little bit of your vocal percussion for us, here in the studio. The "Speaking in Tongues" which was based on all of these traditional syllables that drummers use, almost sounds like you were alluding to that in some of the vocals here. I mean, clearly they're not meaningful syllables in the sense of, they are words or anything like that.

Sheila:

The chant?.

John:

Yeah!

Sheila:

It is Sanskrit actually.

John:

Is it really!

Sheila:

Yes it is, but what I've done is scramble the syllables of it, so I think someone who speaks Sanskrit would find it very difficult to understand but, I've almost sort of scratched them and repeated certain syllables, but yes they are words.

John:

OK. That's "ABoneCroneDrone III" which is said over actually a number of drones. This is not a case where, you know, you just lay down a single solitary drone for six or seven minutes and then worked with that. It seems like, each of these pieces has multiple layers.

Sheila:

Mmm! Oh yes!

John:

But each drone, are they generally in unison or I mean, you mention this one has fifths? So, for example a C and a G or whatever, are there ways to sort of subvert the effective drone, to have a drone that's strongly just says C and then sing in the key of D or A# or something like that?

Sheila:

In the vedas, apparently this is laid out that if one sings in a certain key and then changes the drone note, the emotional effect is predicted so that it says that if you sing third above the key that the melody is set in that you will get ... I can't remember, I think you get a very dreamy quality. And it goes through the whole scale and gives you those. But that's not really what I've been playing with here because that would point away from the drone and this way I'm pointing towards the drone.

John:

Or into the drone.

Sheila:

Into the drone - yes

John:

Isn't that funny. So this is from, you know, from vedic times, several thousand years ago, central Asia. And yet in Europe in the early classical period there were all these traduces being written about how all these keys did all the exact same thing.

Sheila:

Yes. Well, I mean, are we really that different? I think this whole orchestral thing and this pop thing with chords and everything is just this maverick offshoot. Its kind of an upstart movement, isn't it? That has nothing to do with what our biology dictates, because we drone. As long as we're alive we drone. We emit frequency, from the stapes bone in the middle ear, where apparently we emit the average of all the frequencies that we are, and also the blood rushing in our ears, and I think that stapes bone thing can be heard late at night when you can't sleep and there's this awful high pitched drone which seems really, really loud? I think that's the one it is. So, drones are present so long as we're present, so long as the listener is present. So, it's almost true to say that drones are at the essence of our aliveness and, I'm not surprised that a lot of musical cultures honour that fact.

John:

Well it's funny that our particular culture, which seems so far removed from the cultures whose music is a drone with a melody over it. We've sort of surrounded ourselves with drones. I mean, in this country it's the 60 kilohertz, the 60 cycle drone that powers all of our electricity that runs our refrigerators and our ...

Sheila:

And even the appliances themselves hum and whine and drone and, I know some really lovely photocopiers that one wants to sing over.

John:

Uhuh! So has it gotton to the point now where, you know, if there's a bit of sustain sound, that you just ....?

Sheila:

Yes, Yes! I hear things in it, I do hear things in it and I think when you listen long enough, you start hearing more than just those harmonic dances. Your brain, your imagination takes over and I start to hear full performances and it is like seeing things, and I say to Steve. "Well can't you hear them - that's a Carnatic vocal with a violin following?" He says "No, I can't hear that". And then when we were mixing, 'cos listening to the same drone for 16 hours, you can imagine, how deeply you get into it. When we were mixing "ABone Crone Drone II" and the digeridoos came in, I started hearing a cajun band and, there isn't one there! So... other people could hear that one as well which was a bit weird! Maybe because we'd all been listening at the same rate for the same amount of time. So who knows, there maybe even for the listener that's not used to tuning into these things and very weird things to be heard on this album. Things that aren't there.

John:

Do you ascribe a sort of musical drone to the din of traffic outside your window or I mean, things like that.

Sheila:

Yes, I do, yes. It is just a different way of hearing.

John:

We were talking before, off mike, about this composer, Lamont Young, who actually, he and his wife went out into the surf off of the Long Island shore, attempted to find the drone, and this was a recording project they were doing in the 60s. You know the idea of finding a drone, in fact that this recording came to naught because Lamont says - a very choppy day and they couldn't identify the drone but, the idea is such a, I don't know, such an quixotic one, you know and ...

Sheila:

Mmm! Poetic as well.

John:

 

Yes, absolutely, and it seems that again, that's sort of part of the magic of the drones.

Sheila:

Mmm! Well, we talk about ideas resonating about things ringing true and about being sound and not cracked. A cracked jar won't ring - when you tap it and I really think that a lot of these poetical illusions are to do with concrete physics that we, you know, we maybe don't acknowledge but, we feel instinctively.

John:

There's a theory, I don't know if you've heard this, that the earth does vibrate as well, the earth rings. You know the whole idea of music of spheres is not just some flight of poetic fancy but has some physical ...

Sheila:

Physical reality.

John:

Yeah! Real basis.

Sheila:

Yeah, I could well believe that.

John:

Nice idea. Umm, "ABoneCroneDrone VI" - the last of the six. What surprises are lurking in here.

Sheila:

Well, you mentioned Lamont with the waves, this has the sound of waves. The dual sets of waves which crash at various times and tanpura which is perhaps the most hypnotic of the drones. Tanpura is a plucked string instrument, where one attempts to pluck the strings in a way that causes the least impact so that they simply ring. The strings ring and we use the first and fifth cycles that one usually associates with that. I think it's the track on the album that sort of plays you out into the real world because it's very very calming and soothing, and again my voice is just there to point to the notes in the tanpura and hopefully, you know, as I was saying, you go off into the world retaining that sense of subtlety in sound. I think it is a great shame that our attention spans are being eaten away at and, you know, we have all these fast choppy cuts and edits and music videos and in a way they're taking away from our ability to enjoy the music because, if your attention span is not capable of sustaining anything then you cannot really appreciate music. And it seems to me that the attention span is important to us, not just so that we can appreciate music but also so that we can broaden that number of - broaden our horizons in imaginative terms. We can only be what we imagine, and we need our own attention spans to think big thoughts, to reinvent ourselves, to not be limited by what is being reflected at us and, so music like this has its place, you know, in the sense of exercising your mental muscles as well as your ears. And enabling you to go out into the world, maybe more alert on a mental level.

John:

The idea, as you said before, you know, it's - there are harmonics in everything and something like this might give you the opportunity, if you haven't started hearing them, to really begin to do that.

Sheila:

Yeah, and if it takes you to that point where you feel as though you're connecting with something special then, perhaps that connection with something special can happen in other areas. Not just through music, because I believe everybody has their area of expertise, where they connect to something special. You know, if you're a baseball player, it's probably when you get into a meditative state when you strike a home run.

John:

 

Well, they talk about getting into to a zone, football players.

Sheila:

Yeah. I think it's the same thing and I think everybody has their area of expertise, and the idea is that, I think, we're given this gift, this practical area of expertise where we can draw back into that serenity and perform at our optimum, so that we can grow in that area and let it overflow into everyday life and of course artists are notoriously bad at that.

John:

(Laughs) Well, let's hear how this particular artist deals with all of these ideas in "ABoneCroneDrone", Sheila Chandra's latest CD on the Real World label. This is the final track. "ABoneCroneDrone VI" on tonight's edition of New Sounds.

THE SONG IS PLAYED

So the CD, Sheila Chandra ends with the sound of the human breath, from which it all flows. Yeah... "ABoneCroneDrone VI" from the CD "ABoneCroneDrone". An exploration of really what is a very rich microcosm of the world of the drone. It's the basis of the most ancient forms of music making that we have and obviously, you know, there are some very highly developed musical traditions which are based on the drone.

Sheila:

Yes, and some very beautiful ones.

John:

And we've sort of forgotten it in the West but so is ours, absolutely.

Well, this recording strikes me as the kind of thing that probably has generated at least another album's worth of actual melodic material in your mind already. I mean, listening to these drones and, you know, hearing those melodies almost coming out. I mean, do you now have a store house of melodies that were suggested by these recording sessions.

Sheila:

I tried to keep these particularly simple, and I tried not to embellish them and to resist seeing them in emotional terms and just putting down faithfully what I heard without any form of arrangement or polishing. So - no, because, I've deliberately resisted that. But I know that the next time I put on the "McCrimmon" drone, next time I put on "ABoneCroneDrone II", or the basic drone for "ABoneCroneDrone III", I will hear a new set of things, so there is a kind of perpetual motion. It is almost a perpetual motion machine that will keep bringing things to me and it's wonderful to feel led. One could have this great worrying prospect as a composer that one approaches an emotional expressive problem, which is what we call 'the song' without any way to.... Well when it's unfinished, one has this problem as how to express this emotion in a way that's not overly clever and in a way that's simple and touching - which is what all artists want to do whatever, however, strange their musical structure maybe to the western ear - and one doesn't necessarily know that there's a solution. It's not going to be published in next week's paper. You know, if one is led and one feels that the song is complete or ready, then that makes it much much easier. It stops you being freaked out. This connection to the divine, stops you from being freaked out otherwise, when I hear the "Speaking in Tongues" pieces even I don't really believe I can say it that fast, I never ever do when I hear the recording, and it's only when I connect, that I can do them that fast.

John:

Well, I'm looking forward to where all of these possible emotions and melodies that you've consciously surpressed for this project will lead you to the next.

Sheila:

Yes, I'm looking forward to finding out that too. I never know 'til it happens.

John:

All right, well the CD is called "ABoneCroneDrone" by Sheila Chandra. It's on the Real World record label. Sheila, always a pleasure to have you here in the studio. Thanks so much for coming in.

Sheila:

I feel the same, thank you, John.

John:

Sheila Chandra's my guest on this portion of the programme. We have more still to come. I'm John Schaefer and you're listening to New Sounds.

For further information see www.wnyc.org